Lasik Complications

OT: Question of the day…. 04/20/07

admin — Fri, 20 Apr 2007 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

04/20/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Anon poster :) Do you prefer contact lenses or glasses if you need corrective lenses? Would you consider laser eye surgery? Jackie ~*~No matter where you go or what you do, you live your entire life within the confines of your head~*~ – Terry Josephson — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I wear glasses. I can’t imagine putting contacts directly on my eyes… I have the start of cataracts so am not a candidate for laser surgery but would consider it if I could. smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 04/20/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Anon poster :) Do you prefer contact lenses or glasses if you need corrective lenses? Would you consider laser eye surgery? Jackie ~*~No matter where you go or what you do, you live your entire life within the confines of your head~*~ - Terry Josephson — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Do you prefer contact lenses or glasses if you need corrective lenses? Would you consider laser eye surgery?

I prefer contacts. I have the disposable kind and sleep in them… throw them away after a few weeks. Not interested in laser eye surgery. MikeH . — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

04/20/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Anon poster Do you prefer contact lenses or glasses if you need corrective lenses? Would you consider laser eye surgery?

I wear contacts and have since about the 8th grade. I’d consider laser eye surgery in about 10 years, maybe, when it’s fully tested. It’s still not fool-proof and it isn’t permanent. kili — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

04/20/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Anon poster :) Do you prefer contact lenses or glasses if you need corrective lenses? Would you consider laser eye surgery?

I have reading glases which I like. I would most certainly consider laser surgery if and when it becomes necessary. Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Right now, glasses, but I have used both. Considering contacts again. I’m not a candidate for the laser surgery. I’d do it today if I qualified, but my eyes do not fit their criteria. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

04/20/07: Today’s question is being brought to you by our very own Anon poster :) Do you prefer contact lenses or glasses if you need corrective lenses? Would you consider laser eye surgery? Jackie

I would wear glasses. I think I would look good with em! — _TJ_

Response:

Seizures and Neuroleptic Drugs

admin — Thu, 30 Dec 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Try a new psychiatrist. In my opinion he is mixing too many drugs at once. Neuroleptics are depressants. I would not expect them to cause seizures, but it might be prudent to review the data in the PDR. I never heard of loxitane. What country are you in? "SSR"

wrote in message

news:20ZAd.30051$nV.1079442@news20.bellglobal.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

My 17 year old son was put on loxitane for his illness, and recently

(about

2 weeks after begining the therapy he had a seizure, complete with foam at mouth. The psychiatrist decided to try some of the new anti-psychotic

drugs

(i.e. seroquel) but they were mainly ineffective. Right now, my boy is in the hospital, trying to stabalize his condition.

I’m more than a liittle concerned, now that we are using the older drugs (ie. Prolixin), does anyone know after if having had a seizure on

loxitane,

if it (the seizure) is likely to occur again?? P.S. The boy is also on Prozac, Elavil, Parsitan, and Remeron. Love to you all! -SR

Response:

Quiet Neighbor

wrote in message

news:QbeBd.4917$5R.2473@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com…

Try a new psychiatrist. In my opinion he is mixing too many drugs at

once.

Neuroleptics are depressants. I would not expect them to cause seizures, but it might be prudent to review the data in the PDR. I never heard of loxitane. What country are you in?

i have not heard of seisures specifically, but certainly people have reactions to drugs. i had tachycardia from a risperidal derivative. there is also NMS (Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome) which is very dangerous. antipsychotics are serious shit and should only be taken if needed. antidepressants are like candy in comparison (other than some tricyclic reactions). m.

Response:

Quiet Neighbor

wrote in message

news:QbeBd.4917$5R.2473@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com…

Try a new psychiatrist. In my opinion he is mixing too many drugs at

once.

Neuroleptics are depressants. I would not expect them to cause seizures, but it might be prudent to review the data in the PDR. I never heard of loxitane. What country are you in?

from the Physician’s Desk Reference (HTML conversion): "Seizures have been reported in patients receiving LOXITANE at antipsychotic dose levels, and may occur in epileptic patients even with maintenance of routine anticonvulsant drug therapy." so it’s certainly linked to seisures. Anticholinergic action, EPS, NMS, cardiovascular effects, and TD are all fun possibilities. m.

Response:

Quiet Neighbor wrote:

Try a new psychiatrist. In my opinion he is mixing too many drugs at once. Neuroleptics are depressants. I would not expect them to cause seizures, but it might be prudent to review the data in the PDR.

I had seizures on seroquel. they did lots of tests on my brain and found i wasn’t epileptic. right before the fits i saw poisonous spiders crawling around everywhere. — kes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I never heard of loxitane. What country are you in? "SSR"

Response:

I stand corrected. "gravity"

wrote in message

news:icjBd.4692$JC2.2223@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Quiet Neighbor

wrote in message

> news:QbeBd.4917$5R.2473@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com… > > Try a new psychiatrist. In my opinion he is mixing too many drugs at > once. > > Neuroleptics are depressants. I would not expect them to cause seizures,

but it might be prudent to review the data in the PDR. I never heard of loxitane. What country are you in? from the Physician’s Desk Reference (HTML conversion): "Seizures have been reported in patients receiving LOXITANE at

antipsychotic

dose levels, and may occur in epileptic patients even with maintenance of routine anticonvulsant drug therapy." so it’s certainly linked to seisures. Anticholinergic action, EPS, NMS, cardiovascular effects, and TD are all fun possibilities. m.

Response:

Quiet Neighbor

wrote in message

news:ZfWBd.5336$wZ2.2036@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com…

I stand corrected.

good idea to check the PDR. doctors often lie or deceive. for instance, i was told in 1995 that laser eye surgery for myopia had zero risk. people seem surprised that i get so much sedation from Zyprexa, yet the literature clearly states that this is common. and anti-psychotics are often used in conjunction with SSRIs, yet my doctor claimed this was a rare treatment for SZ. yet he earlier claimed that he used these drug combinations a lot (for what though?!). the nurses in the hospital claimed my tachycardia (up to 140 BPM) was from smoking and not an AP. yet the literature again states that tachycardia occurs in a few percent of patients. anyway, check up on any drug you take. the doctors and especially nurses are often full of bullshit. m.

Response:

Hopefully, they are lying, and not actually that incompetent. I had a p-doc tell me that thyoridizine, was supposed to act like an anti-depressant. I had complained that it made me depressed. He came up with a quick lie. "gravity"

wrote in message

news:v%YBd.7362$JC2.4704@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Quiet Neighbor

wrote in message

> news:ZfWBd.5336$wZ2.2036@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com… > > I stand corrected. > good idea to check the PDR. doctors often lie or deceive. for instance, i

was told in 1995 that laser eye surgery for myopia had zero risk. people seem surprised that i get so much sedation from Zyprexa, yet the literature clearly states that this is common. and anti-psychotics are often used in conjunction with SSRIs, yet my doctor claimed this was a

rare

treatment for SZ. yet he earlier claimed that he used these drug combinations a lot (for what though?!). the nurses in the hospital claimed my tachycardia (up to 140 BPM) was from smoking and not an AP. yet the literature again states that tachycardia occurs in a few percent of patients. anyway, check up on any drug you take. the doctors and especially nurses are often full of bullshit. m.

Response:

My 17 year old son was put on loxitane for his illness, and recently (about 2 weeks after begining the therapy he had a seizure, complete with foam at mouth. The psychiatrist decided to try some of the new anti-psychotic drugs (i.e. seroquel) but they were mainly ineffective. Right now, my boy is in the hospital, trying to stabalize his condition. So I’m more than a liittle concerned, now that we are using the older drugs (ie. Prolixin), does anyone know after if having had a seizure on loxitane, if it (the seizure) is likely to occur again?? P.S. The boy is also on Prozac, Elavil, Parsitan, and Remeron. Love to you all! -SR

Response:

going in for intralasik screening!

admin — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I had lasik done on january 3, 2000. best thing I ever did. Have 20/15 vision now, and no more glasses!!!!

Response:

What a great present to yourself! Hope the screening goes well for you. Beverly

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am going in the morning for my screening to see if I qualify for intralasik eye surgery. It will be sooo good to get rid of my glasses. This is a present to myself for losing weight and getting to my goal. Wish me luck and pray for me! Hopefully by the weekend I will be on my way to a life without glasses as well as a life of 160+ lbs lighter. Peace! — start 365 goal 200 maintaining 189-194 range current 190

Response:

I had Wavefront PRK in May 2004. It was the best thing I have ever done. PRK is like lasik, except there is no flap created….. the lasers are used directly on the eyeball. It is more painful and has longer recovery then Lasik….. However, it is less invasive and has less side effects. I was fine in under 5 days. Anyway, my vision is perfect and my horrible astigmatism is gone! Good luck on your consultation!!

Response:

I am going in the morning for my screening to see if I qualify for intralasik eye surgery. It will be sooo good to get rid of my glasses. This is a present to myself for losing weight and getting to my goal. Wish me luck and pray for me! Hopefully by the weekend I will be on my way to a life without glasses as well as a life of 160+ lbs lighter. Peace!

I’d love to have lasik surgery! What a great present to yourself. Good luck! — PL (320/298/170) (First mini-goal: 299 Reached! 08/26/04) (Second mini-goal: 279) — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Question Implants

admin — Fri, 14 May 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’m 53 and 18 months post LRP. I have no erectile function, and have been researching the implants. I have not been talking to doctors…. but to other men I’ve encountered through lists (or their wives)…. and I have yet to meet one single man who was not *very satisfied* with the implant. It is my understanding, however, that it is *irreversible*. In other words, if you ever have it removed, it will not be possible for the penis to function on it’s own. For an informative video on the implant procedure, itself, go to this site: http://www.healthology.com/focus_webcast.asp?f=men_sexualhealth&c=sur… If you don’t mind graphic photos of the implants, check out this site: http://www.erectionphotos.com/frames_index.htm I’m not at a point where I’m ready to give up on getting some more function back, though that does seem more and more unlikely. So for me the implant is somewhere in the future…. but it is *DEFINITELY* an option I will consider. If you find any other sites with information, please share. Take care! MikeH

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m looking for opinion or experience with implants.I had an RP two years ago and radiation last year,40 treatments over 8 weeks.My Rp left me 3 inches shorter in length and a smaller circumference but useable.The radiation took care of the useable part.Now at 47 I don’t want to wait 2 years to get a stuffy if I’m lucky.I have read that either type implant can give back length and volume with a life of ten years.You can then have it replace or you might not need it then.I see my Dr. the 19 going to see what he say’s.I value the groups opinion more the his.It seems from what I read here and my own experience that Dr’s are in no hurry.They want us two try everything form needle to pumps to time.I want some fun this year!!!

Response:

if i’m right on my thinking, it is due to the fact that the surgeon

cut that much urethra out and had to pull it back to attach everything. ~ curtis

Hi all – I commented to my urologist that the cryosurgery had left Mr Happy shorter. He said that any of the radical procedures would do that, period. I don’t know why, evidently it just goes with the territory. It seems that cutting the urethra section out is not the only thing responsible, although that may increase the effect. Wow! increase the decrease. Figure that one out Curtis. ) Bob Austin Age 75 PSA 7 Free PSA 12 1st round of biopsies clear, 2nd. 2 positives Gleason 9 Cryosurgery 03/11/03 Post Op PSA’s .04 & .01

Response:

It seems that cutting the urethra section out is not the only thing responsible, although that may increase the effect. Wow! increase the decrease. Figure that one out Curtis. ) Bob Austin i wonder if this falls under the same heading as fighting for peace?? ~ curtis knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."

Response:

If "peace" means submitting to tyranny, "fighting for peace" is nonsense, of course.

Response:

Peace, since the dawn of time, has been an unobtainable goal. For short terms, we have experienced it. The longest term so far was probably after Nagasaki. Seems like a hell of a cost to pay for peace. — Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSA .07 .05 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It seems that cutting the urethra section out is not the only thing responsible, although that may increase the effect. Wow! increase the decrease. Figure that one out Curtis. ) Bob Austin i wonder if this falls under the same heading as fighting for peace?? If "peace" means submitting to tyranny, "fighting for peace" is nonsense, of course.

Response:

Have you tried a pump? That is a cheap (compared to the implant surgery), effective, no drug way to restore function. I use mine to "get the blood flowing", so to speak, but have not graduated to clips yet. That is probably my next step because the other methods have proved ineffective. Just a thought, before jumping into the implant surgery. By the way, from what I have read, that surgery is not reversible. Be sure in your research you get that answered clearly. Also, like the prostate surgery, be sure you are getting an experienced doctor with a good reputation that is not afraid to answer your questions, including his success/failure rate. Good luck. David S.

Response:

I’m looking for opinion or experience with implants.I had an RP two years ago and radiation last year,40 treatments over 8 weeks.My Rp left me 3 inches shorter in length and a smaller circumference but useable.The radiation took care of the useable part.Now at 47 I don’t want to wait 2 years to get a stuffy if I’m lucky.I have read that either type implant can give back length and volume with a life of ten years.You can then have it replace or you might not need it then.I see my Dr. the 19 going to see what he say’s.I value the groups opinion more the his.It seems from what I read here and my own experience that Dr’s are in no hurry.They want us two try everything form needle to pumps to time.I want some fun this year!!!

My husband has a friend that had the RP surgery 10 years ago. Eventually he had an implant installed, and he told my husband that he and his wife are very satisfied with it. He said that he got it because he wanted to get back what they had lost.

Response:

There is a video on www.Phoenix5.org showing a penile implant operation (Caren says she’s working on the problems, so it might be up again). The only drawback I noticed is that the head of the penis is not effected and remains soft. As to your problem, it does not add length either. They take out what you got and put in replacement parts of the same length. — Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSA .07 .05 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03, 4/04

Response:

year!!! I question the safety of these things. The docs claim you can take them out without damage, but I don’t believe it. Ask to see one. They’re BIG!. A whole lot of tissue has to be stretched, pushed aside, or whatever to get the thing in. You put one of those things inside you and who knows if anything will ever be the same. Another question I have is what their long term effects are. Women with breast implants have sometimes gotten some non-trivial problems from them. Finally, it will presumably make you stiff, but will it really be more fun? The doctors who specialize in this are running a business. They’re salesmen. They’re like the guys who do laser eye surgery – "Oh sure it’s safe. Never had a problem." And if the patient’s sight goes bad and is no longer correctable with glasses, then it’s "Oh that never happened before. You’re the first guy I’ve ever seen who had a problem." I think you’re doing the right thing asking about it. Be skeptical. Alan

Response:

i’m always willing to learn, but i’ve got to admit – i’ve never seen where the implant will give back the length, except where it hasn’t been disturbed. in your case. they shorten you up and in my opinion (and i could be wrong) if you were to get inflated by the implant, you would go to the length you are now, not the length you were before the RP. if i’m right on my thinking, it is due to the fact that the surgeon cut that much urethra out and had to pull it back to attach everything. also, it should be noted that leonard has mention that after the RP, the bladder will drop down some into where the space where the prostate use to be, thus adding to length. it will be interesting to hear what the dr has to say. ~ curtis knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."

Response:

Overcoming Binge Eating

admin — Tue, 11 May 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

This is the title of a book by Christopher Fairburn that I just finished reading and highly recommend. It’s written for the general public and geared toward those who feel they may have binge eating disorder, bulimia, or anorexia or for those who are living with someone with the problem or just those who might want to learn more about it. The first part of the book is educational and the second part contains a detailed self-help program. I can’t vouch for the self-help program yet – ask me in 6 months. I thought I would share this because there is a lot of misunderstanding about these diseases not only from the general public but even with some health care professionals. It comes highly recommended from the leaders in the field of eating disorders. It contains a lot of good information and clinical data. There are people here in asd who have mentioned problems with binge eating. Hope this helps! Jenn

Response:

Golly girl – you shour do read alot. :) But that’s a good thing!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is the title of a book by Christopher Fairburn that I just finished reading and highly recommend. It’s written for the general public and geared toward those who feel they may have binge eating disorder, bulimia, or anorexia or for those who are living with someone with the problem or just those who might want to learn more about it. The first part of the book is educational and the second part contains a detailed self-help program. I can’t vouch for the self-help program yet – ask me in 6 months. I thought I would share this because there is a lot of misunderstanding about these diseases not only from the general public but even with some health care professionals. It comes highly recommended from the leaders in the field of eating disorders. It contains a lot of good information and clinical data. There are people here in asd who have mentioned problems with binge eating. Hope this helps! Jenn

Response:

I bought fattitudes a month ago and still haven’t finished it because I am so busy. I just had PRK surgery on Friday, so I won’t be reading for a while. This sounds like a good one though.

Response:

Jenn, it may not surprise you to know that I already have this book. I agree it’s an excellent book. The thing that shone through for me most is that it’s written by someone who really does seem to understand the issues, which I think is a rare thing even among medical professionals. Several things he says describe my behaviour very closely. The only area in the first part of the book where I would take issue with him is the way he passes off the physiological effects of binge eating as farily minor – perhaps he hasn’t studied anyone who’s been at it as long as I have! However, I don’t think I will ever be able to commit myself to the recovery programme that he suggests. I think trying to deal with the issue in this way would be something I would be prepared to try if I was much closer to the weight I want to be – until then I find myself totally unable to follow any sort of programme whose first aim isn’t to deliver a good weight loss. Of course, I realise I’m trapped in a vicious circle, but understanding that doesn’t make it any easier to turn my back on dieting. I’m glad he makes such a strong link between dieting and binge eating, though, as this has been my experience absolutely although I’ve had people tell me I’m wrong about this. janice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This is the title of a book by Christopher Fairburn that I just finished reading and highly recommend. It’s written for the general public and geared toward those who feel they may have binge eating disorder, bulimia, or anorexia or for those who are living with someone with the problem or just those who might want to learn more about it. The first part of the book is educational and the second part contains a detailed self-help program. I can’t vouch for the self-help program yet – ask me in 6 months. I thought I would share this because there is a lot of misunderstanding about these diseases not only from the general public but even with some health care professionals. It comes highly recommended from the leaders in the field of eating disorders. It contains a lot of good information and clinical data. There are people here in asd who have mentioned problems with binge eating. Hope this helps! Jenn

Response:

thanks for the info jenn. i think i might take a look for the book myself. Angie

Response:

Actually I’ve been doing a lot more reading cause of the insomnia… Jenn

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Golly girl – you shour do read alot. :) But that’s a good thing! This is the title of a book by Christopher Fairburn that I just finished reading and highly recommend. It’s written for the general public and geared toward those who feel they may have binge eating disorder, bulimia, or anorexia or for those who are living with someone with the problem or just those who might want to learn more about it. The first part of the book is educational and the second part contains a detailed self-help program. I can’t vouch for the self-help program yet – ask me in 6 months. I thought I would share this because there is a lot of misunderstanding about these diseases not only from the general public but even with some health care professionals. It comes highly recommended from the leaders in the field of eating disorders. It contains a lot of good information and clinical data. There are people here in asd who have mentioned problems with binge eating. Hope this helps! Jenn

Response:

I bought fattitudes a month ago and still haven’t finished it because I am so busy. I just had PRK surgery on Friday, so I won’t be reading for a while. This sounds like a good one though.

That’s the laser eye surgery? Hope you can eventually read this post I really thought it was a worthwhile read. Fattitudes was good too, but for me this one hit the nail directly on the head. Jenn

Response:

Jenn, it may not surprise you to know that I already have this book.

It doesn’t surprise me in the least. The book has been around since ’94 or ’95 and you appear by your posts to be a very self-aware kinda gal. I agree it’s an excellent book. The thing that shone through for me most is that it’s written by someone who really does seem to understand the issues, which I think is a rare thing even among medical professionals. Several things he says describe my behaviour very closely. The only area in the first part of the book where I would take issue with him is the way he passes off the physiological effects of binge eating as farily minor – perhaps he hasn’t studied anyone who’s been at it as long as I have!

I agree that he probably hasn’t studied the old broads like us who have 20+ years of this behavior under our belts. I don’t agree with you that he passes off the effects as minor at all since he goes on at length to discuss the ensuing depression, mood disorders, and general obsession which are all psychological. He does explain that "finding the origin" is really not important in most cases since what triggered you at 15 yrs old is probably not what’s keeping it going at 25 (or 35, etc). However, that’s my take on the book and I am not saying you’re wrong, only that I saw it differently. However, I don’t think I will ever be able to commit myself to the recovery programme that he suggests. I think trying to deal with the issue in this way would be something I would be prepared to try if I was much closer to the weight I want to be – until then I find myself totally unable to follow any sort of programme whose first aim isn’t to deliver a good weight loss. Of course, I realise I’m trapped in a vicious circle, but understanding that doesn’t make it any easier to turn my back on dieting. I’m glad he makes such a strong link between dieting and binge eating, though, as this has been my experience absolutely although I’ve had people tell me I’m wrong about this.

And you will continue to have people tell you that you’re wrong because everybody knows everything about everybody else. It was very validating to see the research about the links between dieting and binge behavior. In the appendix 2 he does discuss the need to choose between doing a weight loss program or the recovery program, and he does make some really good points. When I was 300 lbs, my priority was to lose weight. Now at my current weight where it’s not putting me at high risk anymore and the fact that I did have the full blown bulimia return for a while, I need to shift my priority because that is a bigger health risk than the 20 lbs I want to lose. Fairburn swears that it is highly unlikely that a person will gain any weight on the recovery program and his arguments made enough sense to me that I’m convincing myself to try it. While the recovery program does require giving up on "dieting," his eating recommendations are very similar to those in the Body for Life program. I’m still finishing the BFL book to see if the two programs would be compatible. I’m seriously considering doing a BFL challenge in about 2 weeks if I truly feel that it won’t jeopardize the recovery program. I can totally relate to the difficulty of giving up on dieting – hence the BFL challenge. I’m not 100% sure I’ll succeed in that area either – though I think I can eventually adjust to giving up strict or extreme dieting like the author describes especially if I really don’t gain any weight on the recovery program. I’ve been dieting for the last 27 years on and off and even when off I would think about it and plan the next one. You can’t just turn your back on that. As always, we need to do what is best for our own selves. Jenn

Response:

I probably didn’t express myself very clearly on this. I was thinking more of the actual physical effects on the body, particularly the effects of abusing my body with overeating has had on my entire digestive system – I’ll spare you all the details:) I was very interested in the "finding the origin bit" – he describes something I’ve often thought to myself and have tried to explore in group and 1 to 1 sessions in the past but never solved – that the reasons which cause the behaviour to continue are not (necessarily) what caused it to start in the first place. I’m sure this is true for me, but I can’t really get any closer to understanding the reasons. . Fairburn swears that it is highly unlikely that a person will gain any weight on the recovery program and his arguments made enough sense to me that I’m convincing myself to try it.

Yes, but for me I don’t want to be told I won’t gain, I want to be told I’ll lose. It’s very hard to let go of that, it’s the main thing that keeps me going! While the recovery program does require giving up on "dieting," his eating recommendations are very similar to those in the Body for Life program. I’m still finishing the BFL book to see if the two programs would be compatible. I’m seriously considering doing a BFL challenge in about 2 weeks if I truly feel that it won’t jeopardize the recovery program.

Perhaps I should read BFL – I’m not someone to try out everything that’s going (and I’m not suggesting you are either, Jenn, I hope that’s not how this sounds), but I’m curious about BFL as others have done so well with it and it certainly is a bit different. As always, we need to do what is best for our own selves.

Amen to that. The best people here on asd, IMO, are those who like a healthy discussion, who share their trials and errors and thoughts and ideas, but never forget that we’re all different and their way isn’t necessarily the right one for others. I’m glad you’re going to stay with us, and I look forward to hearing how you get on if you do the BFL challenge. janice

Response:

I agree that he probably hasn’t studied the old broads like us

LOL – I forgot to mention that I’m a lot older and broader than you Jenn:( janice

Response:

Actually I’ve been doing a lot more reading cause of the insomnia… Jenn ….She said in a post w/ a time stamp of 2am. Guess so…. Hope you cure that soon too. I hate boughts of insomnia… it totally interfers with life.

I just have to remember to take the Tylenol PM early enough in the evening so that I can get up in the morning

Response:

Whoops, you were clear when you wrote physiological. My fatigue and general brain death saw it as psychological. I agree, I was a little surprised that Fairburn felt there was little physical damage from the overeating itself, but I’d imagine the studies bear that out. Jenn

Response:

Yup… and as of yesterday, I can again read magazines! I worked out last night for the first time since the surgery and got to watch the hunks AND see the time on the wall clock. "JMA" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the laser eye surgery? Hope you can eventually read this post I really thought it was a worthwhile read. Fattitudes was good too, but for me this one hit the nail directly on the head. Jenn

Response:

or you could stop buying combination medication and just buy what your looking for, which is Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride (benadryl) and take a smaller dose. (using liquid or tablets) — rosie http://www.johnkerry.com/features/heartandlifetime/email.html

: :

: : Actually I’ve been doing a lot more reading cause of the insomnia… : : Jenn : : : ….She said in a post w/ a time stamp of 2am. : : Guess so…. Hope you cure that soon too. I hate boughts of : insomnia… it totally interfers with life. : : I just have to remember to take the Tylenol PM early enough in the evening : so that I can get up in the morning : : : lol… I’m the same way with that stuff. Gotta take it by like 6pm : or I won’t want to get up in the morning and would sleep till noon. :

Response:

or you could stop buying combination medication and just buy what your looking for, which is Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride (benadryl) and take a smaller dose. (using liquid or tablets)

No, no, no. It’s the acetaminophen in the Tylenol PM that helps cut the loginess caused by the diphenhydramine. If you take straight Benadryl, you’ll be even more hung over. One Tylenol PM is 25 mg of Benadryl and 325 mg of Tylenol. If you decide to take the straight medication, no matter what dose of Benadryl you take, always pop an acetaminophen (brand or generic, doesn’t matter). Linda, RN 198/148/135

Response:

But benadryl also has pseudoephedrine (the decongestant) and that makes some of us loopy.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – DIPHENHYDRAMINE/BENADRYL is the PM in TYLENOL PM. — rosie http://www.johnkerry.com/features/heartandlifetime/email.html : : or you could stop buying combination medication and just buy what : your looking for, which is : Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride (benadryl) and take a smaller dose. : (using liquid or tablets) : : benadryl makes me loopy and even though I can’t think straight or : stand up straight, I can’t sleep with it either.

Response:

DIPHENHYDRAMINE/BENADRYL is the PM in TYLENOL PM. — rosie http://www.johnkerry.com/features/heartandlifetime/email.html

: : or you could stop buying combination medication and just buy what : your looking for, which is : Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride (benadryl) and take a smaller dose. : (using liquid or tablets) : : benadryl makes me loopy and even though I can’t think straight or : stand up straight, I can’t sleep with it either.

Response:

Neuro-Linguistic Programming

admin — Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

"Karen"

wrote in message

news:20040113023235.21935.00001702@mb-m26.aol.com…

Just a thought, was looking on the internet and came across NLP which can

done over the phone. Was wondering if anyone had tried this and was it

easy to

do and did they find that it was effective for anytype of symptom they

had. I

dont even know what it is. Can anyone comment? Regards Karen

I bought a cassette set about 10 years ago. I think it’s mostly a scam. The basic technique was to think of something pleasant(hard to come up with anything) or routine that you felt comfortable with and then imagine a difficult situation and replay what you felt(or heard as in listening to a circus song) going through the situation in fast forward. NLP was basically hyped as "copying" the behaviors of successessful people. I’ve come to realize that nothing is certain on the mind. Psychology, NLP is mostly bs. Some psychological tricks do work such as memory tricks in those maximizing memory books. But that’s all. Scientific research on the brain is still in the cave-man stages. Otherwise procedures to "cure" the brain besides electroshock therapy would be as accepted as laser-eye surgery today. Actually, don’t try NLP, meditation or anything to do with trances. It can get you violated or possessed by demons. I’m not kidding. If you want to relax the mind, just plain relax. Imagine yourself at the beach. Enjoy the air or the sun or just enjoy sleeping in bed. I suggest reading a book on logic instead. Learn about Modus Ponens and predicates. Causality and logic, the basis of provable science works because God made it so. Regards, frank

Response:

There are quite a few websites about NLP on the net and I would guess a newsgroup or too, as well. It works for some people. Me, I guess my internal wiring is too well established for it to have much of an effect. I did try one NLP session with a live practictioner (sp?) and the after-effects only stayed with me for a day or so. I’d recommend in person rather than over the phone.

Response:

runchie…@aol.com (Karen) wrote in message

… Just a thought, was looking on the internet and came across NLP which can be done over the phone. Was wondering if anyone had tried this and was it easy to do and did they find that it was effective for anytype of symptom they had. I dont even know what it is. Can anyone comment? Regards Karen

Its all bs. Having someone else in control of my mind is not something that appeals to me anyway. Peace, bnb

Response:

Just a thought, was looking on the internet and came across NLP which can be done over the phone. Was wondering if anyone had tried this and was it easy to do and did they find that it was effective for anytype of symptom they had. I dont even know what it is. Can anyone comment? Regards Karen

Response:

"Karen"

wrote in message

news:20040113023235.21935.00001702@mb-m26.aol.com…

Just a thought, was looking on the internet and came across NLP which can

done over the phone. Was wondering if anyone had tried this and was it

easy to

do and did they find that it was effective for anytype of symptom they

had. I

dont even know what it is. Can anyone comment? Regards Karen

I tried hypnosis over the phone. Waste of money I’d say, it had no effect on me, except it felt comfortable while lasting!

Response:

quit money

admin — Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Anyone have cool quit money plans? If all goes well hopefully a gold ring with a nice big diamond for my beautiful girlfriends finger Glenn I will be continuing to gasp for breath, smell like an ashtray and line my lungs with a disgusting concoction of cancer causing chemicals for another 11 hours, 57 minutes and 7 seconds.

Wow…well I hope for your sake, and hers, that all goes well then! And do let us know when you’ve done the proposal – if you need tips on making it romantic…ask around! There are some very nice love stories around AS3 Not long till your quit starts…best wishes to you Glenn… Paula

Response:

Anyone have cool quit money plans? I’ve decided to find out how much I really saved by saving it. I’ve set up an automatic transfer to take $150 a month out of my checking account and deposit it into my brokerage account. When I get enough accumulated there to buy into a new mutual fund I’ll set up an automatic monthly buy order. I have a brand new nephew. When he gets to college age I should have about $70,000 for him. Of course, that’ll probably just buy books.

That is awesome!! Considering the price of books now though, it might not cover them — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

Response:

Columbia Jacket?? What is that? Misstiblu

Columbia makes the warmest winter wear. Lightweight and comfortable yet able to withstand Minnesota winters with style. They cost a bit though…..more than I usually spend on myself. But since I "earned it" I figured why not. Sorry this took so long to reply. I didn’t see your post until just now. (One of the drawbacks of a busy newsgroup…..hard to keep up with every post) Chris 4M

Response:

Ohhhhhh I get it now. Hadn’t heard that "brand" before. Sounds cozy! Misstiblu

Response:

Wow…….what an innovative thing to do with your quit cash. My brother had it done and loves the freedom from glasses. *Spent my cash on a Columbia jacket* Chris 4M

Columbia Jacket?? What is that? Misstiblu

Response:

I’ve decided to find out how much I really saved by saving it. I’ve set up an automatic transfer to take $150 a month out of my checking account and deposit it into my brokerage account. When I get enough accumulated there to buy into a new mutual fund I’ll set up an automatic monthly buy order. I have a brand new nephew. When he gets to college age I should have about $70,000 for him. Of course, that’ll probably just buy books. Dawn One month, one week, four days, 6 hours, 12 minutes. 845 cigarettes not smoked, saving $211.29.

And….A Highlighter If he shops at Walmart Misstiblu

Response:

Anyone have cool quit money plans?

Well…IF I don’t spend it all on CANDY… I am buying a bedroom suite – nice one…king size bed :-) Misstiblu

Response:

Anyone have cool quit money plans? Well first my ciagarette money is going to fund my masters. Then when I’m done with that, I think I will get a tummy tuck. I have been working working to get back in physical shape, but I had a C section years ago and I just can’t get my tummy flat. I had put on 40 pounds over 4 years trying to quit smoking. I lost 20 of that before I started on this quit. This time I am doing the Atkins diet in conjunction with not smoking. I only think it’s fair that the cigarette money make me look better since the cigarettes made me fat. Merry

Response:

Anyone have cool quit money plans?

If all goes well hopefully a gold ring with a nice big diamond for my beautiful girlfriends finger Glenn I will be continuing to gasp for breath, smell like an ashtray and line my lungs with a disgusting concoction of cancer causing chemicals for another 11 hours, 57 minutes and 7 seconds.

Response:

Woo hoo Marie! I had thought about that surgery (I wear glasses for driving/movies etc) but I am too darn chicken…can’t even wear contacts cos my eyes are so sensitive…what a great thing to do with your quit money though! Mine keeps getting spent on the garden and renovating! Hehe… Hugs Paula

I love gardening and renovating, but it is winter here, so I can’t do much of either right now. Surgery seemed a reasonable option — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

Response:

Wow…….what an innovative thing to do with your quit cash. My brother had it done and loves the freedom from glasses. *Spent my cash on a Columbia jacket* Chris 4M

If I lived in the cold north, I would probably choose the Columbia jacket too — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

Response:

Anyone have cool quit money plans?

Response:

Wow…….what an innovative thing to do with your quit cash. My brother had it done and loves the freedom from glasses. *Spent my cash on a Columbia jacket* Chris 4M

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Every once in a while we all post what we are doing or have done with our quit money. This week I took a big plunge and gave a whole bunch of my quit money to my eye doctor and had lasik surgery. Oh Wow!!! After having worn glasses for as long as I can remember and contacts since I was 10, I am seeing 20/20 without any correction. This is so cool!!!!! I even went for a 20 mile ride yesterday, in honor of the 20/20 All of the post op instructions warn you about cig smoke, stay away from it, try not to get any in your eyes, etc. I don’t have to worry about that anymore Of course, staying away from the computer for 24 hours was torture! I may just catch up on posts by next week. Anyone have cool quit money plans? — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

Response:

hmmmmmmm….I would love to have that surgery, mc. But I’ve never had anything more than a few stitches….no surgeries at all…..and as chicken shit as I am, I’d be afraid to do this. I’ve known a few people now who have had it done and never regretted it. Good for you for having the guts to do it!!!!! May be time for me to do some research on it… Sally

I had a couple of corneal abrasions from contacts over the years and as it got closer all I could remember was how much they hurt! The surgery is really cool though, it didn’t hurt. I will heartily recommend it! — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

Response:

That’s great news!! I’ve heard a lot of good reports from ppl having the lasik surgery. Be careful about bouncing around on yer bike….aren’t ya sposed to be kinda still and quiet for a while?

Dr told me yesterday I could ride if I felt up to it, so I did I am still having close in vision adjustments, so computers and reading are hard. Anyone have cool quit money plans? Nope….I think I ate mine….no really….either that, or there really IS someone following close *behind*. I was looking at all our pics on the Quit Buddies site the other day…..& came across your’s……you are lookin good….how’d ya do it?? What with the new eye balls…you is really makeing a new you. And no effing smoking too…..Cool…WTG!! Ripley / eating oatmeal….might’s well just plaster it on my hips :-( and be done with it.

Oatmeal is healthy and not really lots of calories, I eat it a lot for a snack in the winter I had some health problems that caused me to think I needed to make some huge lifestyle changes. I feel so much better now it has become easier to keep up! the weight and the smoking are all just one day at a time. — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

Response:

Every once in a while we all post what we are doing or have done with our quit money. This week I took a big plunge and gave a whole bunch of my quit money to my eye doctor and had lasik surgery. Oh Wow!!! After having worn glasses for as long as I can remember and contacts since I was 10, I am seeing 20/20 without any correction. This is so cool!!!!! I even went for a 20 mile ride yesterday, in honor of the 20/20 All of the post op instructions warn you about cig smoke, stay away from it, try not to get any in your eyes, etc. I don’t have to worry about that anymore Of course, staying away from the computer for 24 hours was torture! I may just catch up on posts by next week. Anyone have cool quit money plans? — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

Response:

That’s great news!! I’ve heard a lot of good reports from ppl having the lasik surgery. Be careful about bouncing around on yer bike….aren’t ya sposed to be kinda still and quiet for a while? Anyone have cool quit money plans?

Nope….I think I ate mine….no really….either that, or there really IS someone following close *behind*. I was looking at all our pics on the Quit Buddies site the other day…..& came across your’s……you are lookin good….how’d ya do it?? What with the new eye balls…you is really makeing a new you. And no effing smoking too…..Cool…WTG!! Ripley / eating oatmeal….might’s well just plaster it on my hips :-( and be done with it. — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

— Nuttin nasty in here!! :-) Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

— Nuttin nasty in here!! :-) Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

That’s great news!! I’ve heard a lot of good reports from ppl having the lasik surgery. Be careful about bouncing around on yer bike….aren’t ya sposed to be kinda still and quiet for a while?

Response:

Wow…….what an innovative thing to do with your quit cash. My brother had it done and loves the freedom from glasses. *Spent my cash on a Columbia jacket* Chris 4M

Response:

Wow…….what an innovative thing to do with your quit cash. My brother had it done and loves the freedom from glasses. *Spent my cash on a Columbia jacket* Chris 4M

If I lived in the cold north, I would probably choose the Columbia jacket too — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

Response:

Anyone have cool quit money plans?

Response:

Wow…….what an innovative thing to do with your quit cash. My brother had it done and loves the freedom from glasses. *Spent my cash on a Columbia jacket* Chris 4M

Columbia Jacket?? What is that? Misstiblu

Response:

And….A Highlighter If he shops at Walmart Misstiblu

Response:

Anyone have cool quit money plans?

Well…IF I don’t spend it all on CANDY… I am buying a bedroom suite – nice one…king size bed :-) Misstiblu

Response:

Anyone have cool quit money plans?

Response:

That is awesome!! Considering the price of books now though, it might not cover them — mc I haven’t lost my mind, Its backed up on disk somewhere! 1Y

Response:

Columbia Jacket?? What is that? Misstiblu

Response:

Ohhhhhh I get it now. Hadn’t heard that "brand" before. Sounds cozy! Misstiblu

Response:

The French..What do you have to say?

admin — Thu, 11 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

We’ll agree to differ, shall we?

Fairy nuff. Tis only a matter of opinion after all. Cheers. Tim —

Response:

And as a bonus score, here are my Eurovision Song Contest points for the two national anthems: Britain 5 France 10 You’re being *way* too generous to Britain. Our anthem is a dreadful dirge.

Beethoven liked it, and his value as a music critic is way higher than yours, I’m afraid. Edward — The reading group’s reading group: http://www.bookgroup.org.uk

Response:

You’re being *way* too generous to Britain. Our anthem is a dreadful dirge. Beethoven liked it, and his value as a music critic is way higher than yours, I’m afraid.

I’m not quite sure what the opinion of a dead deaf German has to do with it. In my opinion it sucks and I think you’ll find few living music critics who will defend it. Tim —

Response:

You’re being *way* too generous to Britain. Our anthem is a dreadful dirge. Beethoven liked it, and his value as a music critic is way higher than yours, I’m afraid. I’m not quite sure what the opinion of a dead deaf German has to do with it.

He wouldn’t need to "hear" it to know what it sounded like – he’d just have to read the music. And he wasn’t deaf all his life. Though he is, of course, very dead. Decomposing, in fact. In my opinion it sucks

To which, of course, you are entirely entitled. and I think you’ll find few living music critics who will defend it.

Well, what do critics know? As Kenneth Tynan said, "A critic is a man who knows the way but can’t drive the car." Or Sibelius: "Pay no attention to what the critics say. A statue has never been erected in honour of a critic." We’ll agree to differ, shall we? Edward — The reading group’s reading group: http://www.bookgroup.org.uk

Response:

Dissing the French is SO last year. Let’s focus on the real enemy

Response:

Dissing the French is SO last year. Let’s focus on the real enemy

The real enemy to this country is GWB, the head chimp.

Response:

What’s T/F?

Track & Field. Cycling is far bigger media-wise than running, but it’s nowhere nearly such a

popular sport in terms of participation – far more people compete in foot races than in cycling races. It is VERY expensive to race cycles as a pro. You need sponsors, probably a team, etc. To run, all you need is ability. The media attention paid to cycling in France is based on revenue generation, and is probably the best measure of public interest, don’t you think? In terms of public participation, the running events can draw anyone; the cycling events, on the other hand, have equipment-related bars to participation.

Response:

What’s T/F? Track & Field.

OK. Thanks. Gets lumped together as "athletics" here. It is VERY expensive to race cycles as a pro. You need sponsors, probably a team, etc. To run, all you need is ability.

This just isn’t true of pro runners (or amateur bikers). The same applies to both running and biking. OK, the bike is a good deal more expensive than a pair of shoes. And to compete at (inter)national level you need a lot more dope to be competitive… But the sponsors & organisers are paying it all anyway (eg Greta Weitz ran her first marathon in NY only because the organisers paid the expenses for her and hubby, cf interview in Pfitzinger’s marathon book)… The media attention paid to cycling in France is based on revenue generation, and is probably the best measure of public interest, don’t you think? In terms of public participation, the running events can draw anyone; the cycling events, on the other hand, have equipment-related bars to participation.

I would tend to agree, especially if by "public interest" you mean "non-participative spectator interest", but in that case, you have to put Formula 1 racing, horse racing and skiing along side footy, rugby and tennis, all ahead of (or at least equal to) cycling. Maybe here in the South West there is a disproportionate interest in Rugby, or maybe I work with the wrong socio-proffessional categories, but conversations at work are practically never about cycling, outside the Pyrenees stages of the Tour. However just get them started on Rugby, Soccer or Tennis…

Response:

And as a bonus score, here are my Eurovision Song Contest points for the two national anthems: Britain 5 France 10

You’re being *way* too generous to Britain. Our anthem is a dreadful dirge. Tim —

Response:

I can name a dozen top flight French runners off the top of my head and only

one Brit (Paula) and zero Americans (except Andy Hass . The IAAF stuff is interesting (and your ".Fr" ISP is duly noted), but I was trying to explain any difference (if there is one?) between French attitudes and those of other nations by pointing to historical, rather than current, world-class "running" celebrities. In France, the former achievements of Jacques Anquetil and Bernard Hinault (and others) help bring serious enthusiasm for cycling. In GBR, Roger Bannister, Coe, Ovett, Pirie (and many others) bring real enthusiasm to running sports. I mean no disrespect to either country, but certainly you would agree that cycling is bigger in France than running or T/F? I know American Lance Armstrong takes a lot of heat "over there" for his 5 straight "Tour de France" wins. Non? Or is that just animosity for Americans?

Response:

The French are a bunch of assholes.

Frogs can’t run, they can only hop.

Response:

The French are a bunch of assholes.

PHUCK THE PHRENCH!!!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -French Spectators Taunt the Runners in the Paris Marathon —- PARIS – Apparently, while they are enthusiastic supporters of professional sports such as their national soccer team, the French have a disdain for joggers and other amateur sports enthusiasts. According to The New York Times, spectators taunted runners during the running of the 26 mile (42 kilometer) Paris Marathon this month. Whereas spectators in the New York City marathon shout encouragement to runners, especially to those who are flagging, spectators in Paris were reported as shouting out to runners taunts such as "You’d better run faster because they’re opening the street up to cars soon" and "Only 500 kilometers left." http://www.bongonews.com/layout4.php?event=105

When I ran the Paris marathon I heard nothing of this. Maybe it’s bollocks. Rob

Response:

The French are a bunch of assholes. Bill, oops, I mean Itchy, have you considered a trip to Paris to taunt the French?

Hey Surf, have you considered pulling your head out of your ass?

Response:

(and your ".Fr" ISP is duly noted),

What’s T/F? Cycling is far behind dowwnhill skiing, soccer, rugby and tennis. Cycling is far bigger media-wise than running, but it’s nowhere nearly such a popular sport in terms of participation – far more people compete in foot races than in cycling races. Indeed cycle is a pretty much a minority sport nowadays. Interesting statistic here, from the city of Clermont Ferrand http://www.ville-clermont-ferrand.fr/aimer/sport/licence.htm Of 21 000 sports licence-holders in that town, only 140 were pure cyclists (357 if we lump them with cyclo-touring), compared to : Skiing 2 824 Football 2 131 Basketball 1 532 Rugby 1 333 P

Rice-sized shunt helps glaucoma patients

admin — Sun, 07 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Rice-sized shunt helps glaucoma patients 12/07/2003 By RENEE C. LEE / Associated Press When Zain Ali was diagnosed with glaucoma eight years ago, he already had firsthand knowledge of the eye-damaging disease. Glaucoma gradually diminished his father’s eyesight

Apnea and LAUP- Uvulopalatoplasty

admin — Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tal wrote:

Remember, snoring is NOT apnea, but almost 100% of apnea patients snore! If you snore loudly enough to be heard outside the bedroom, have interrupted gaspy snores, and snore in all positions, that is most likely apnea. You can worsen over time and convert snoring to apnea with weight gain, aging, sedatives, alcohol, etc. Of course, i have no evidence to back this up, but I’m betting more people than we realise have apnea and dont’ snore. THere are a few who’ve posted here that have apnea and don’t snore, we had to fight to get a sleep study because the common response from GP/PCPs is "if you don’t snore you can’t have apnea" but it sure makes you wonder how many of us there are out there who have been told "you can’t have apnea because you dont’ snore" acutally do, but never have the opportunity to find out.

I am one of the ones who never snored. That is till I got anti depressants and sleeping pills while in the hospital and they referred me because of it. Funny thing, even after I stopped those pills I kept snoring, till I got CPAP of course.

Response:

Are there no clues to central apnea?? "Lori&Mike"

wrote in message

news:vm5crosaavf905@corp.supernews.com… : : "People with central sleep apnea may or may not snore excessively." : http://health.msfc.nasa.gov/tips/apnea.html : : Makes sense to me since central apnea events usually don’t involve physical : obstructions. I NEVER snored and still don’t of course. To me now this was a big : clue that I had an underlying central component although sleep study showed none. : Also, huge weight loss had no effect, surgeries didn’t work, all clues of an : underlying central apnea. Sure enough now with all the obstructions cut out, I’m : almost all central apnea. What a waste of time, pain, and grief. Mike

Response:

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:00:43 GMT, Pavel wrote:

Are there no clues to central apnea??

Sleep apnea in general has clues (daytime fatigue, mood changes, hypertension). As to differentiating central, obstructive, and mixed events, that gets done in the sleep lab because they have to see exactly what happens: Central (no breathing, not trying to breathe) Obstructive (no breathing, trying to breathe) Mixed (starts out central and then obstructs) — Offshore a CEO: buy an ADR!

Response:

In article

,

newsgro…@DELETEQhotmail.com says…

Are there no clues to central apnea??

There sure are, Pavel. Mostly it’s from a detailed sleep study (polysomnogram or PSG) and the analysis of brain wave functions, but there are other, subtle clues that MAY help determining if CSA is something to be looked for… Note that these are all things that can also occur with OSA, so if THAT has been ruled out, then look for CSA events. **Std disclaimer_ I’m not a doc or med professional- all of this is based on my OWN experience and observation, and confirmed by a PSG that showed definate Central events, and the continuation of Central Apnea events post-trach…. Others may NOT experience the same or similar symptoms, or there may be NO symptoms at all other than that general malaise and lethargy most apneacs (is that even a word?) have. During sleep hours: – periodic waking, either for bathroom trips (regular intervals) or gasping for air (irregular intervals). – Increase in urine output. – Might sweats (other than the grey flannel ones

).

While awake: – "forgetting" to breath- that gasp for air done while sitting at a computer or watching TV or otherwise mentally occupied. There’s a bunch of info out there for CSA, but here more than ever, Sturgeon’s Law prevails (95% of everything is shit)… take what you read with considerable doubt and trust very few "cures". continued luck in your hunt for knowledge, Vic

Response:

"Victor Radin"

wrote in message

news:MPG.19cd2d21f0222a939897be@news.chi.sbcglobal.net…

During sleep hours: – periodic waking, either for bathroom trips (regular intervals)

Why is this (regular intervals)? I was amazed at how regularly I was getting up to urinate. 3 times a night and it was like I was using an alarm clock. Seemed to be within 5 minutes every time every night. Maybe my apneas were pretty regular in frequency and intensity? -Quick

Response:

In article

,

dave_horw…@NOSPAMsbcglobal.net says…

"Victor Radin"

As I understand it has to do with the kidneys working overtime, caused by the apnea events, thus filling the bladder. Since the bladder has a finite space and can only hold so much, every time it fills, it needs to be emptied. Fill time will vary from person to person but as you say- "Just like an alarm clock". It doesn’t seem to matter if I have anything to drink within hours or minutes of bedtime- kidney output caused by the apnea appears to be at a constant rate. vic

Response:

"Victor Radin"

wrote in message

news:MPG.19cc70efa91fc9c89897bd@news.chi.sbcglobal.net… | Pavel… | | Would that we all could be sunning on a tropical isle. My prior rant was | written with a satirical twist- I recall seeing your posting about not | getting the surgery and waiting for a full sleep study- a wise choice, | by the way. Had I not seen your change of mind I would not have been | quite so glib. I kinda assumed that. But, all too often we can easily skim and miss some things. So, if anyone assumed that, I could understand it, I just had to clarify. I got a quite a chuckle at what you all wrote ;-) On another note. I’m curious to see what my GP has to say about my experience with the ENT. Even though my GP says he has many OSA patients, I had to point out to him that night sweats are a result of SA. At first he didn’t believe me, then the internist I saw last month wrote a letter to my GP advising him of the same. However, neither will agree that GERD is a result of sleep apnea. Hmmm. Things should be verrrrry interesting.

Response:

"Tal"

wrote in message

news:bju93m$nfd1v$1@ID-148111.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

NO, no,no,no,no,no,no,no. I wrote in my previous post that I won’t be getting the surgery. Nor have I been hypnotized. Everyone here reaffirms my gut feeling. You are all so correct. That ENT specialist will be sunning in some wonderful tropical haven. I wish I could do that. forgive them we have so many come here sayign their doc has told them to have surgery and what should they expect, they get good advice from many here, then go off ignorign that advice to get the surgery their doc brainwashed them into….. I’m glad you’re different — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles Remove my name to reply

He’s smarter than I was ) I wouldn’t be so adamant if I didn’t truly know that this surgery is useless and can make the situation worse. Mike

Response:

In article

,

newsgro…@NOSPAMhotmail.com says…

NO, no,no,no,no,no,no,no. I wrote in my previous post that I won’t be getting the surgery. Nor have I been hypnotized. Everyone here reaffirms my gut feeling. You are all so correct. That ENT specialist will be sunning in some wonderful tropical haven. I wish I could do that.

Pavel… Would that we all could be sunning on a tropical isle. My prior rant was written with a satirical twist- I recall seeing your posting about not getting the surgery and waiting for a full sleep study- a wise choice, by the way. Had I not seen your change of mind I would not have been quite so glib. — Sleepless by choice not chance, Vic

Response:

"Tal"

wrote in message

news:bju8or$mm7je$1@ID-148111.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Remember, snoring is NOT apnea, but almost 100% of apnea patients snore! If you snore loudly enough to be heard outside the bedroom, have interrupted gaspy snores, and snore in all positions, that is most likely apnea. You can worsen over time and convert snoring to apnea with weight gain, aging, sedatives, alcohol, etc. Of course, i have no evidence to back this up, but I’m betting more people than we realise have apnea and dont’ snore. THere are a few who’ve posted here that have apnea and don’t snore, we had to fight to get a sleep study because the common response from GP/PCPs is "if you don’t snore you can’t have apnea" but it sure makes you wonder how many of us there are out there who have been told "you can’t have apnea because you dont’ snore" acutally do, but never have the opportunity to find out. — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles Remove my name to reply

As Beth mentioned, a lot but not all people with obstructive apnea snore. Doctors, as usual, try to attach a simple diagnosis for a complex problem. Estimates as high as 50% of the population has snored at some time or another. Snoring without apnea is called Primary Snoring http://www.uni-marburg.de/sleep/enn/database/asdadefs/def2d6.htm "People with central sleep apnea may or may not snore excessively." http://health.msfc.nasa.gov/tips/apnea.html Makes sense to me since central apnea events usually don’t involve physical obstructions. I NEVER snored and still don’t of course. To me now this was a big clue that I had an underlying central component although sleep study showed none. Also, huge weight loss had no effect, surgeries didn’t work, all clues of an underlying central apnea. Sure enough now with all the obstructions cut out, I’m almost all central apnea. What a waste of time, pain, and grief. Mike

Response:

NO, no,no,no,no,no,no,no. I wrote in my previous post that I won’t be getting the surgery. Nor have I been hypnotized. Everyone here reaffirms my gut feeling. You are all so correct. That ENT specialist will be sunning in some wonderful tropical haven. I wish I could do that.

forgive them we have so many come here sayign their doc has told them to have surgery and what should they expect, they get good advice from many here, then go off ignorign that advice to get the surgery their doc brainwashed them into….. I’m glad you’re different — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles Remove my name to reply —

Response:

Remember, snoring is NOT apnea, but almost 100% of apnea patients snore!

you snore loudly enough to be heard outside the bedroom, have interrupted gaspy snores, and snore in all positions, that is most likely apnea. You can worsen over time and convert snoring to apnea with weight gain, aging, sedatives, alcohol, etc.

Of course, i have no evidence to back this up, but I’m betting more people than we realise have apnea and dont’ snore. THere are a few who’ve posted here that have apnea and don’t snore, we had to fight to get a sleep study because the common response from GP/PCPs is "if you don’t snore you can’t have apnea" but it sure makes you wonder how many of us there are out there who have been told "you can’t have apnea because you dont’ snore" acutally do, but never have the opportunity to find out. — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles Remove my name to reply

Response:

NO, no,no,no,no,no,no,no. I wrote in my previous post that I won’t be getting the surgery. Nor have I been hypnotized. Everyone here reaffirms my gut feeling. You are all so correct. That ENT specialist will be sunning in some wonderful tropical haven. I wish I could do that. "Victor Radin"

wrote in message

news:MPG.19cc4f395b429289897bc@news.chi.sbcglobal.net… : Eric… : : You’re not looking at this with the proper attitude

. Pavel is

only : looking towards the future. Yes, he will have the $urgery because the : $urgeon has convinced him of the efficacy and efficiency of having it : done. True, the $surgeon will have a delightful cruise to the Islands. : Pavel will almost certainly need further treatment later, should he be : so lucky to HAVE a later. : : Pavel’s wife, significant other, next-of-kin will no doubt file a : malpractice suit against the $urgeon, should they be able to find him : sunning in Aruba. : : They will win the suit, take over the ex-$urgeons boat, and live : comfortably, albiet without Pavel who will have enjoyed a lovely demise : from hypertension, kidney failure, or hitting a bridge abutment caused : by his falling asleep whilst driving. : : Pavel is merely planning for his family’s future financial security. Not : every family is so blest as to have such a person with that foresight. : : regards, : Vic : with tongue planted firmly in cheek. : : In article <1t15mvsrtvqvnnpome1f076bo734025…@4ax.com

,

: db2e…@nospammindspring.com says… :

Pavel has been hyptnoized by the evil $urgeon beast.

Pavel will get cut due to false hopes.

The $urgeon will have a Caribbean vacation.

The $urgeon wil not give a damn that he/she has sped

Pavel’s path to death or a nusing home.

Pavel will be yet another victim of the $urgeons.

May God have mercy upon Pavel’s soul.

May Satan roast the $urgeon in hell for eternity for his/her

greed. :

regards,

eric pearson

db2e…@nospammindspring.com

Response:

Pavel wrote:

He feels given my age (36) that the CPAP is not for me.

Say what? Last time I checked there was no disclaimer on my CPAP that said "For ages 59 and up". :-) I got started with my CPAP at age 32. I’ve got the same one 12 years later… I think your ENT is not quite being up front with you and agree with the others here that you should run, not walk away from this guy. Ken

Response:

Ken, Pavel has been hyptnoized by the evil $urgeon beast. Pavel will get cut due to false hopes. The $urgeon will have a Caribbean vacation. The $urgeon wil not give a damn that he/she has sped Pavel’s path to death or a nusing home. Pavel will be yet another victim of the $urgeons. May God have mercy upon Pavel’s soul. May Satan roast the $urgeon in hell for eternity for his/her greed. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 00:01:37 GMT, Tamarisk

wrote: Pavel wrote: He feels given my age (36) that the CPAP is not for me. Say what? Last time I checked there was no disclaimer on my CPAP that said "For ages 59 and up". :-) I got started with my CPAP at age 32. I’ve got the same one 12 years later… I think your ENT is not quite being up front with you and agree with the others here that you should run, not walk away from this guy. Ken

Response:

Eric… You’re not looking at this with the proper attitude

. Pavel is only

looking towards the future. Yes, he will have the $urgery because the $urgeon has convinced him of the efficacy and efficiency of having it done. True, the $surgeon will have a delightful cruise to the Islands. Pavel will almost certainly need further treatment later, should he be so lucky to HAVE a later. Pavel’s wife, significant other, next-of-kin will no doubt file a malpractice suit against the $urgeon, should they be able to find him sunning in Aruba. They will win the suit, take over the ex-$urgeons boat, and live comfortably, albiet without Pavel who will have enjoyed a lovely demise from hypertension, kidney failure, or hitting a bridge abutment caused by his falling asleep whilst driving. Pavel is merely planning for his family’s future financial security. Not every family is so blest as to have such a person with that foresight. regards, Vic with tongue planted firmly in cheek. In article <1t15mvsrtvqvnnpome1f076bo734025…@4ax.com

,

db2e…@nospammindspring.com says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

Pavel has been hyptnoized by the evil $urgeon beast. Pavel will get cut due to false hopes. The $urgeon will have a Caribbean vacation. The $urgeon wil not give a damn that he/she has sped Pavel’s path to death or a nusing home. Pavel will be yet another victim of the $urgeons. May God have mercy upon Pavel’s soul. May Satan roast the $urgeon in hell for eternity for his/her greed. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com

Response:

As a sleep technician with 20+ years of experience, can you suggest how we get this doctor/ripoff artist punished for his bad behavior? "bs"

wrote in message

news:AJi8b.200$VL4.322851@news2.news.adelphia.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

As a tech with 20+ yrs of exp, I have to reply and agree with all of the before mentioned comments. If you are sleepy, fatigued, have high blood pressure, and snore, you will show sleep apnea on your PSG. If your circulatory system is in fair shape, you won’t show much on a pulse ox screen. Depending on the setting for sample rate on device, it can miss quick drops in o2 sat. Think why a ENT would want to show that you are

mild

and not need a CPAP! If you don’t go anywhere else thinking you are mild, and have surgery, pay out of pocket, you won’t have high expectations (UPPP/LAUP always lessens snoring, so you will initially be happy, despite the pain), you remain tired, and your apnea gets worse. There are dozens of published studies that show UPPP/LAUP failures, What the ENT crowd can’t do is publish studies that use actual PSG data showing resolution of all resp events, brain arousals, and normal sleep after surgery. THey state that a cure is 50% reduction in Apnea Hypopnea Index (AHI) or sometimes just spouse reporting of reduced snoring! Most of their research is limited to small sample sizes. The ONLY ENT PROGRAM

that

publishes decent data is Dr Powell and Riley at Stanford. They use PSG pre-post to get actual outcomes on various procedures. If you stop breathing 200 times per night, or have partial events 200 times per night and have surgery, and if everything works perfect, you can maybe get to

the

50% reduction, so you still have 100 events! Not good! A screening test that does not detect pauses in breathing with a airflow sensor, along with oximetry and body position is invalid except for severe levels of OSA. Many screening tests like the SNAP (snore microphone) are not covered by insurance, so you pay out of pocket. By the time you pay

out

of pocket for the test, then surgery, you could have gotten a eval by

sleep

doc, real sleep study, and CPAP. Especially if you have insurance, your copay for real tests and treatment would be less than costs associated

with

the other ENT promoted options. As a tech, we also see many patients post UPPP/LAUP that end up on CPAP anyway and can’t tolerate the simple nasal masks due to mouth leaks. The removal of palate causes air to gush out the mouth since there is no

longer

a seal between the tongue and palate, allowing air to go down into the airway. We end up trying full face masks and chin straps, which are not comfortable! Remember, snoring is NOT apnea, but almost 100% of apnea patients snore!

If > you snore loudly enough to be heard outside the bedroom, have interrupted > gaspy snores, and snore in all positions, that is most likely apnea. You > can worsen over time and convert snoring to apnea with weight gain, aging, > sedatives, alcohol, etc. > Finally, the paper by Dr. Schmidt is accurate and just because the snoring > is cured, brain arousals can remain, leading to continued sleep disruption > and fatigue….. > Regards > Bret (RPSGT #106) > "h.sanders"

wrote in message

> news:ZimdnRHL8_GHwPyiXTWJhQ@comcast.com… > > "Pavel"

wrote in message

> > news:8T78b.85858$_5.1508189@news1.telusplanet.net… > > > I just came back from my [first] visit to an ear, nose, and throat > > > specialist. He stuck this cable down my nose/throat and showed me how > my > > > uvula is flapping all over the place when I made a snoring sounding > noise. > > > I have mild sleep apnea via oximeter (spell?) , but I am going to a > sleep > > > study clinic. He says that those that are not very overweight ( I think

I’m 10-15 lbs overweight) -5 .9 /4 feet and 180 lbs like me stand a good chance to benefit from this treatment. He feels given my age (36) that the CPAP is not for me. However, in no way did he guarantee or assure me that my sleep apnea will improve. He’s Dr. Dickson. a link is below. His

procedure

is not covered under any medical plan and neither is the CPAP machine unless I have moderate to severe sleep apnea. http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/mintz/snorcond.htm Comments anyone have any input? —————————————————- Run away from this character as fast as you can. He’s a surgeon and he only makes money if he cuts, slices and dices. Oximetry won’t tell you if you have apnea. It just measures the oxygen saturation in your blood. You

need

a real sleep study to know if you have apnea, whether it be mild or

severe.

I have never read anywhere that age has much to do with apnea. When I was getting my study and titration, a 2-yr-old was in the clinic having the same study. This guy certainly doesn’t appear to have your best interests at heart. Run, don’t walk, to a REAL sleep doctor. Cheers, Hal S.

Response:

1) Get a real sleep study before you do anything else. Oximeter testing is insufficient. Even though my O2 was near normal, I had very severe apnea (97/hour). 2) Surgery (except trache) is usually ineffective. Get at least two more opinions (preferably from sleep docs who are not ENT or $urgeons). In most cases surgery accomplishes nothing other than to enrich the $urgeon. 3) A flapping uvula while you are awake and emulating snoring has very little to do with how your airway functions when you are asleep. I suspect your doctor is doing you a disservice. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:50:28 GMT, "Pavel" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

wrote: I just came back from my [first] visit to an ear, nose, and throat specialist. He stuck this cable down my nose/throat and showed me how my uvula is flapping all over the place when I made a snoring sounding noise. I have mild sleep apnea via oximeter (spell?) , but I am going to a sleep study clinic. He says that those that are not very overweight ( I think I’m 10-15 lbs overweight) -5 .9 /4 feet and 180 lbs like me stand a good chance to benefit from this treatment. He feels given my age (36) that the CPAP is not for me. However, in no way did he guarantee or assure me that my sleep apnea will improve. He’s Dr. Dickson. a link is below. His procedure is not covered under any medical plan and neither is the CPAP machine unless I have moderate to severe sleep apnea. http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/mintz/snorcond.htm Comments anyone have any input?

Response:

As a tech with 20+ yrs of exp, I have to reply and agree with all of the before mentioned comments. If you are sleepy, fatigued, have high blood pressure, and snore, you will show sleep apnea on your PSG. If your circulatory system is in fair shape, you won’t show much on a pulse ox screen. Depending on the setting for sample rate on device, it can miss quick drops in o2 sat. Think why a ENT would want to show that you are mild and not need a CPAP! If you don’t go anywhere else thinking you are mild, and have surgery, pay out of pocket, you won’t have high expectations (UPPP/LAUP always lessens snoring, so you will initially be happy, despite the pain), you remain tired, and your apnea gets worse. There are dozens of published studies that show UPPP/LAUP failures, What the ENT crowd can’t do is publish studies that use actual PSG data showing resolution of all resp events, brain arousals, and normal sleep after surgery. THey state that a cure is 50% reduction in Apnea Hypopnea Index (AHI) or sometimes just spouse reporting of reduced snoring! Most of their research is limited to small sample sizes. The ONLY ENT PROGRAM that publishes decent data is Dr Powell and Riley at Stanford. They use PSG pre-post to get actual outcomes on various procedures. If you stop breathing 200 times per night, or have partial events 200 times per night and have surgery, and if everything works perfect, you can maybe get to the 50% reduction, so you still have 100 events! Not good! A screening test that does not detect pauses in breathing with a airflow sensor, along with oximetry and body position is invalid except for severe levels of OSA. Many screening tests like the SNAP (snore microphone) are not covered by insurance, so you pay out of pocket. By the time you pay out of pocket for the test, then surgery, you could have gotten a eval by sleep doc, real sleep study, and CPAP. Especially if you have insurance, your copay for real tests and treatment would be less than costs associated with the other ENT promoted options. As a tech, we also see many patients post UPPP/LAUP that end up on CPAP anyway and can’t tolerate the simple nasal masks due to mouth leaks. The removal of palate causes air to gush out the mouth since there is no longer a seal between the tongue and palate, allowing air to go down into the airway. We end up trying full face masks and chin straps, which are not comfortable! Remember, snoring is NOT apnea, but almost 100% of apnea patients snore! If you snore loudly enough to be heard outside the bedroom, have interrupted gaspy snores, and snore in all positions, that is most likely apnea. You can worsen over time and convert snoring to apnea with weight gain, aging, sedatives, alcohol, etc. Finally, the paper by Dr. Schmidt is accurate and just because the snoring is cured, brain arousals can remain, leading to continued sleep disruption and fatigue….. Regards Bret (RPSGT #106) "h.sanders"

wrote in message

news:ZimdnRHL8_GHwPyiXTWJhQ@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Pavel"

wrote in message

> news:8T78b.85858$_5.1508189@news1.telusplanet.net… > > I just came back from my [first] visit to an ear, nose, and throat > > specialist. He stuck this cable down my nose/throat and showed me how my

uvula is flapping all over the place when I made a snoring sounding

noise.

I have mild sleep apnea via oximeter (spell?) , but I am going to a

sleep

study clinic. He says that those that are not very overweight ( I think I’m 10-15 lbs overweight) -5 .9 /4 feet and 180 lbs like me stand a good chance to benefit from this treatment. He feels given my age (36) that the

CPAP

is not for me. However, in no way did he guarantee or assure me that my sleep apnea will improve. He’s Dr. Dickson. a link is below. His procedure

not covered under any medical plan and neither is the CPAP machine

unless

I have moderate to severe sleep apnea. http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/mintz/snorcond.htm Comments anyone have any input? —————————————————- Run away from this character as fast as you can. He’s a surgeon and he

only

makes money if he cuts, slices and dices. Oximetry won’t tell you if you have apnea. It just measures the oxygen saturation in your blood. You need

real sleep study to know if you have apnea, whether it be mild or severe.

have never read anywhere that age has much to do with apnea. When I was getting my study and titration, a 2-yr-old was in the clinic having the

same

study. This guy certainly doesn’t appear to have your best interests at heart. Run, don’t walk, to a REAL sleep doctor. Cheers, Hal S.

Response:

I just came back from my [first] visit to an ear, nose, and throat specialist. He stuck this cable down my nose/throat and showed me how my uvula is flapping all over the place when I made a snoring sounding noise. I have mild sleep apnea via oximeter (spell?) , but I am going to a sleep study clinic. He says that those that are not very overweight ( I think I’m 10-15 lbs overweight) -5 .9 /4 feet and 180 lbs like me stand a good chance to benefit from this treatment. He feels given my age (36) that the CPAP is not for me. However, in no way did he guarantee or assure me that my sleep apnea will improve. He’s Dr. Dickson. a link is below. His procedure is not covered under any medical plan and neither is the CPAP machine unless I have moderate to severe sleep apnea. http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/mintz/snorcond.htm Comments anyone have any input?

Response:

I recently had UPPP+tonsillectomy, it’s too soon to tell if it’s been effective. The LAUP is supposed to be less painful initially, but still has a long (2 week+) recovery time. And that is not even "complete" recovery, just a major absence of pain and the regained ability to eat more solid food. Swallowing will still hurt or be very uncomfortable. I asked about the laser assisted surgery prior to getting the conventional. There are no doctors in my area that do it. I believe that just because they use a "laser" doesn’t make the procedure more effective, tissue is still being removed, it’s just being cauterized as you go. Post-op bleeding is still a risk, and to have the surgery done on an outpatient basis is close to irresponsible, unless you live next door to the hospital I don’t see where your age has anything to do with getting the CPAP. It is THE effective treatment for apnea. Since you say yours is mild, the surgery is probably going too far, too fast. Try the machine first , it works. In my case though, since I’m active duty military, I can’t deploy, etc with a CPAP. I elected to try the surgery so I could remain in the service and deploy. Given a different situation, I would NOT have the surgery. Ed "Pavel"

wrote in message

news:8T78b.85858$_5.1508189@news1.telusplanet.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I just came back from my [first] visit to an ear, nose, and throat specialist. He stuck this cable down my nose/throat and showed me how my uvula is flapping all over the place when I made a snoring sounding noise. I have mild sleep apnea via oximeter (spell?) , but I am going to a sleep study clinic. He says that those that are not very overweight ( I think

I’m

10-15 lbs overweight) -5 .9 /4 feet and 180 lbs like me stand a good

chance

to benefit from this treatment. He feels given my age (36) that the CPAP

not for me. However, in no way did he guarantee or assure me that my

sleep

apnea will improve. He’s Dr. Dickson. a link is below. His procedure is not covered under any medical plan and neither is the CPAP machine unless

have moderate to severe sleep apnea. http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/mintz/snorcond.htm Comments anyone have any input?

Response:

On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 23:50:28 GMT, Pavel wrote:

I just came back from my [first] visit to an ear, nose, and throat specialist.

ENT = surgeon. Attempts to find surgical solutions to problems.

He feels given my age (36) that the CPAP is not for me.

Wonder at what age he would recommend a CPAP? I have a nephew who went on it before he was 25.

He’s Dr. Dickson. a link is below.

He more likely than not wants a Lexus… a link is below: http://www.lexus.com/

His procedure is not covered under any medical plan

IMHO: Red flag right there. My experience is that they generally cover anything that hasn’t been determined to be useless.

and neither is the CPAP machine unless I have moderate to severe sleep apnea.

Since you haven’t had a study, you don’t know what you have other than some oxygen desaturation. — Offshore a CEO: buy an ADR!

Response:

Dear sir, Please don’t be insulted when I tell you that this doctor needs to have a cranial-anal retraction procedure done. In other words, he has his head up his ass. 1) If you haven’t had a sleep study, you don’t know how bad your apnea is. You don’t even know if you have apnea, or it could be severe. 2) A CPAP is a painless way to treat sleep apnea. You may be able to lose some weight and lose the apnea as well, but the CPAP won’t hurt you, and will solve your sleep problems if you do have apnea. 3) I don’t care how old you are–this surgery is bad bad bad. Further, if it doesn’t work, it will render you less able to use the CPAP, and potentially leave you in worse shape regarding apnea. Add to that the pain, the fact that you’ll cough liquid out of your nose (I don’t do that), and that it has such a low success rate, and it would be foolish for you to follow this doctor’s bad advice. 4) I had LASIK surgery because of a rare combination of eye problems. I was told by the eye doctor that I should pay for the surgery even if my insurance carrier didn’t, as it would prevent the bleeding in the back of my eye, fix the alignment problems, and make it so I could actually see 20/20 for the first time in many years. Lack of CPAP can kill you, either by causing heart damage, or by causing facial and chest impaction when you fall asleep behind the wheel of your fast-moving car. CPAP is cheaper than LASIK, and it probably is covered by your insurance. Even if not, this is a no-brainer. 5) Before you do anything, switch doctors. You may not even have a problem, other than your doctor wanting to make a payment on the condo in Maui. Gary (you know I’m riled if I cuss in the first paragraph) Rimar "Pavel"

wrote in message

news:8T78b.85858$_5.1508189@news1.telusplanet.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I just came back from my [first] visit to an ear, nose, and throat specialist. He stuck this cable down my nose/throat and showed me how my uvula is flapping all over the place when I made a snoring sounding noise. I have mild sleep apnea via oximeter (spell?) , but I am going to a sleep study clinic. He says that those that are not very overweight ( I think

I’m

10-15 lbs overweight) -5 .9 /4 feet and 180 lbs like me stand a good

chance

to benefit from this treatment. He feels given my age (36) that the CPAP

not for me. However, in no way did he guarantee or assure me that my

sleep

apnea will improve. He’s Dr. Dickson. a link is below. His procedure is not covered under any medical plan and neither is the CPAP machine unless

have moderate to severe sleep apnea. http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/mintz/snorcond.htm Comments anyone have any input?

Response:

"Pavel"

wrote in message

news:8T78b.85858$_5.1508189@news1.telusplanet.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

I just came back from my [first] visit to an ear, nose, and throat specialist. He stuck this cable down my nose/throat and showed me how my uvula is flapping all over the place when I made a snoring sounding noise. I have mild sleep apnea via oximeter (spell?) , but I am going to a sleep study clinic. He says that those that are not very overweight ( I think

I’m

10-15 lbs overweight) -5 .9 /4 feet and 180 lbs like me stand a good

chance

to benefit from this treatment. He feels given my age (36) that the CPAP

not for me. However, in no way did he guarantee or assure me that my

sleep

apnea will improve. He’s Dr. Dickson. a link is below. His procedure is not covered under any medical plan and neither is the CPAP machine unless

have moderate to severe sleep apnea. http://www.interchange.ubc.ca/mintz/snorcond.htm Comments anyone have any input? —————————————————-

Run away from this character as fast as you can. He’s a surgeon and he only makes money if he cuts, slices and dices. Oximetry won’t tell you if you have apnea. It just measures the oxygen saturation in your blood. You need a real sleep study to know if you have apnea, whether it be mild or severe. I have never read anywhere that age has much to do with apnea. When I was getting my study and titration, a 2-yr-old was in the clinic having the same study. This guy certainly doesn’t appear to have your best interests at heart. Run, don’t walk, to a REAL sleep doctor. Cheers, Hal S.

Response:

"Lori&Mike"

wrote in message

| Usually less tissue removed/burned by LAUP versus UPPP so that’s good. Otherwise | both procedures have an abysmal long term record and can actually worsen apnea in | the years to come. Check out http://www.sleepohio.com/press3.asp and do a search | on www.google on LAUP side effects/long term results/failures,, etc. I don’t wish to have the surgery and I likely will not. But, let me play the devil’s advocate for a moment: I was not able to find any "hard" evidence listing any side-effects/failures. The Ohio based study is only 1 study. A specialist or doctor would need more studies to show the failures. Hearsay or personal experiences of some individuals would not satisfy any scientist. A large sample needs to be taken. There [seems to be] a lack of follow-up studies done or not enough participants having submitted the follow-up information. The data is incomplete. Now, back to being me: My medical plan will NOT cover the LAUP procedure. Why? Obviously because they see it as no medical benefit. Now, I’m starting to be very concerned. I have other symptoms that I believe are a cause (indirect or direct) of sleep apnea: mild hypertension, mildly high pulse rate, GERD, and night-sweats. If my GP, specialist, sleep study doctor will not support me; if my sleep study shows mild apnea and/or "upper airway resistance syndrome" I am really screwed. At the very least, I’ll have to buy the CPAP myself without any insurance company’s help and I’ll be worried about the treatment of my other conditions. | | Ask doctor if he will put it in writing that your apnea won’t be WORSE 10 months | after surgery (mine was)! Try losing the weight and sleep on your side. Hurts less | and is free and might actually help ) Mike I already asked him that. He said he can’t guarantee anything. I doubt I’ll go back. I will give my GP %$#! in two weeks when I visit him for referring me to the ENT specialist. The good thing is that I did manage to get an appointment through him for the (other) sleep study clinic that I suggested to him late next month. Normally, one has to wait a year if one goes to the University. I’m surprised he referred me there because he wanted me to go to the University but I asked him about the other one in town and if he could pull a few strings to get me there. He also [appeared] frustrated that I didn’t want to go for the LAUP. He did a great sales job though in his presentation. He even commented that he had it done too, not for SA, but for the snoring. I’ll work on the losing weight–I keep on telling myself that but I am so darn tired after I come home from work. There is always some interuption of sleep in my apartmentve. I need to move to a concrete building. If I think about things…. I feel like I’m just chasing my tail. And this is to all in the group. I haven’t thanked each person for their posts. I appreciate everyone’s post and your candour. This group is great. I thank everyone very much. I’m learning a lot but I know there is sooooo much to learn here. I’ll be here regularly. Again, thank you all. Pavel